00:00:00 – 00:01:19 A person wandering between light and darkness. How much more does he need to think? If the purpose of humor and art is just to soothe human vanity, then is it okay for religion to object to that or not? If all incidents happen due to natural causes, then is there a God who controls the movement of the stars or not? How much more does he need to search? Religion doesn’t change. Is there really any truth in practice or not? Who all does he need to worship? If the purpose of religion is only to attain heaven after death, then does it have any impact on practical life today?

00:00:39 – 00:02:24 No? All my compromises. All my morals, all my worship. If in the end only words remain, will this pursuit ever end? Damn it. [Music] Every religion in the world preaches love, affection, and peace. But what happens when followers of one religion try to impose their views on others by using power? [Music] Is religion a personal matter or not? There have always been two opinions among scholars of the religion. Being a Muslim, we can only interfere in others' lives enough to offer them good advice.

00:01:33 – 00:02:24 We can only tell someone what they should or shouldn't do. If they're listening and understanding us, that's fine. But if they aren’t following our advice, we can't force them. Religion is a personal thing. Yeah, you do follow social norms and setups to the point where you're comfortable. It’s not like you’re openly doing crazy stuff and then saying, "Religion is my personal matter," so why are you living in Pakistan? Like, if I’m wearing sleeveless…

00:01:59 – 00:03:06 Whether I wear a deep neck or have my hair open, no one should have a problem with it. If someone doesn’t like how I look or thinks I shouldn’t wear this or that, then they just shouldn’t look. Some people try to spread the teachings of religion with love and kindness in society, while others rely on extreme violence. These acts include harassing women, throwing black dye on clothes, bombing video centers, and using all kinds of tricks, drama, and insults to intimidate. Peace.

00:02:32 – 00:03:40 Wa alaikum. Welcome to the program seat. Nazrin, you’ve reviewed the package. The thing is, the coast of the Caspian Sea touches Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Azerbaijan, and Iran. But out of all these countries, only the men sitting on the Iranian shore separate themselves like that when Iran’s religious police force them to do so based on Sharia laws. Similarly, some Arab governments also impose such social restrictions on their citizens because they believe these rules enforce the religious command of promoting good and forbidding evil.

00:03:06 – 00:04:14 Today, through a friendly chat with our dear Javed Ahmed Gamdi, we'll try to figure out whether these social restrictions really come from religion, or if every individual in society has the right to exclude certain things from their personal choices. In other words, is religion just a personal matter, or does it go beyond individual likes and dislikes to influence societal rules? And if it does, doesn’t the command to "There is no compulsion in religion" prevent it from doing so? But if it can’t, then once power is gained, bad things are bound to happen no matter what.

00:03:40 – 00:04:45 Does religious encouragement to stop wrongdoing compel those who enforce religious morals to resort to force? This is the topic of our discussion in today’s program. Gandhi said, on the Day of Judgment, everyone will be accountable only for their own actions. So why does the 11th verse of Surah At-Tawbah give the Islamic state the authority to forcibly collect zakat from its citizens and even compel them to pray regularly? Look, what you call religion is basically two things: faith and morals. Faith is a personal matter for each individual.

00:04:13 – 00:05:18 No one has the right to judge my faith or anyone else's faith. Each person is accountable to Allah alone for their own beliefs. But when it comes to moral matters, it's different. In morality, society sets certain rights and rules. You can't just give someone the right to steal, cheat, or harm others. Every government, state, and society recognizes such acts as crimes and treats them accordingly. So, it's wrong to say that something like this is a purely personal matter.

00:04:45 – 00:05:42 Yeah, I don’t think this is right. We need to look into it carefully and consider every aspect before making a decision. You can’t just treat religion as a personal matter that’s only about the individual’s intent. That’s not possible. The reason is, when it comes to ethics, in every society around the world, it’s considered a collective issue. So it’s just not possible to say, “Okay, you’re allowed to mix things up, lie, or cheat people out of their money.” Giving people that kind of freedom means you’re basically allowing them to do whatever they want, no matter how dishonest.

00:05:13 – 00:06:08 Some aspects of ethics are definitely handled by the police. Some are dealt with through careful evaluation. Every society follows that. And some aspects are left to individual human judgment. So when we say ethics, and you say religion or ethics is a personal matter, I say then what about the laws you make in America, Britain, and other countries? There, there’s no religious debate. On what principles do they base them? You stop me from smoking cigarettes. You say that you’re controlling…

00:05:41 – 00:06:39 I can't smoke cigarettes. You can’t smoke on such-and-such airline. You can’t smoke at such-and-such place. What’s the reason behind this? It’s like forcing people to hide something from others, making them do it secretly. There are blasts at video centers. CD shops get run. How do you see this behavior? Actually, these are two or three different things. One thing is, what can you officially declare as illegal or punishable? Where can the state intervene? As far as individuals are concerned,

00:06:10 – 00:07:12 They don't have any right to interfere in any matter. My job is simply to knock on the door of the law. But when you set up a society, when you establish a system of governance, you have to decide whether the whole matter of an Islamic state is about enforcing prayer and zakat as a source of power. See, zakat is basically a tax, just like the taxes your governments impose. Your governments give people the right to pay tax if they want to; the difference between tax and zakat is that the origin of tax is the state, and the origin of zakat is…

00:06:41 – 00:07:32 The origin is divine. So what difference does it make? When some people accept Allah, it means that many others don't accept that divine law. Those who don't accept it, no rulings will be imposed on them. I mean, Muslims do believe in it, right? When a person declares their Islam and says, "I am a Muslim," then the state has the right to decide what to say about prayer. You have the right to encourage people about prayer and promote it in every possible way. The Quran itself has also said something about the Friday sermon.

00:07:06 – 00:08:00 The point has been made clear. And the Prophet’s Sunnah is also that it’s the state’s right. Mosques will be under its control. It’s the job of the rulers of the state to handle the Friday sermon. The real issue is this: if an Islamic state manages the Friday khutbah, nowadays Islam isn’t a single, uniform entity. Muslims—our brothers and sisters—have many different schools of thought that often conflict with each other. So how is it even possible to set up a system within an Islamic state where the prayers and Friday sermon are controlled by the state’s administration? Think about it.

00:07:34 – 00:08:29 The thing is, once the people have chosen a ruler, created a sort of governing state, then Islam has given the ruler that right. When people have elected him, following the method of consultation, and chosen him democratically, he will use his authority. This right doesn't belong to the scholars. Their right is limited to teaching and preaching within their domain. They can educate and guide people, nurture them as teachers. But the Friday sermon is directly related to the state. Because of this, the state has the right over it. That's within the state's authority.

00:08:01 – 00:08:59 In places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, they have such strict rules that shops close during Friday prayers—that's appropriate. Look, the thing is, if a community has Muslims living in it, and they take care to respect things like prayer, then what's the problem with that? If someone doesn’t want to pray, that’s on them. Let’s say a guy doesn’t want to pray—he can just stay home. So why complain about that? But if he opens a shop or takes part in a gathering as a Muslim, then he should respect the prayer. That’s clear, right?

00:08:30 – 00:09:40 From here, we'll continue our conversation, but before that, Nazareen, it's time for a break. We'll be right back after the break. [Music] Welcome back. I wanted to say that some of the things we'll discuss relate to my personal life, some to my family life, some to my profession, and some to politics. Each topic will be looked at separately. We'll also decide whether Islam is the final Abrahamic religion — first Judaism, then Christianity, and then Islam. We don't see things in Judaism and Christianity that force anyone to go to church against their will…

00:09:04 – 00:09:58 Don't force someone to convert or forcibly collect religious taxes from them. But why do people come to Islam? No, that's not true. We have the full history of Judaism in front of us, and we know what rules were given in the Torah. Even those include things related to social life. When you bring social life into existence, you implement those things. I'm asking you, tell me, aren't laws being made in the modern states established today? Isn't there something that can be documented or enforced by the police?

00:09:32 – 00:10:24 No agreements are made. There can be debates about it. These laws can be questioned. But those who question these laws have their necks broken. Why? Why would their necks be broken? If someone wants to ask questions, let them debate. Tell us what's wrong with it? Look, the Quran made such a great point that, on one hand, it clearly defines the scope for making laws that everyone in the world accepts. That means you make laws against moral wrongs. This is done all over the world. It’s done in your country too. Also in America and Britain.

00:09:58 – 00:10:57 That's what happens. You also do it on a global level. You've made laws about many such things at the United Nations too. After that, the rules of prayer and charity were implemented through the Islamic state over the Islamic society. But for an individual, what to eat? What to drink? What to wear? How to spend their money? How to relax? How to treat neighbors and relatives? What to do if you sneeze? Even how to have sexual relations? In every matter, religion seems to guide a person. So, does religion…

00:10:27 – 00:11:26 A robot imagines things based on its own understanding. But here’s the thing—you listed out a whole bunch of stuff, and all of it relates to personal life. Religion teaches you certain things and gives you reasons for those teachings. In other words, religion shapes how a person thinks. The poor person is thinking for themselves. There are specific areas where religion has provided guidance. Whether it’s marriage, funerals, childbirth, or rituals, at every step, a person encounters religion. In other words, it’s something like…

00:10:57 – 00:11:53 There's hardly a case where religion hasn't set up its own jurisdiction or established laws. Why? Because there are only a few specific matters where religion gets involved. The rest of the issues are left for you to make the laws. But the cases where religion intervenes are exactly those where human reason alone doesn't have a solid basis to decide. First, clearly tell me—what ruling has Islam given where you had a rational basis to make your own decision? Just look at matters like marriage and divorce.

00:11:25 – 00:12:23 Here you go. Look at the mistakes people have made in this matter and how much trouble they've caused. When you make divorce complicated, what comes out of it? And when you make it easy, what do you get? There are many aspects of social life where people need guidance from God. Religion exists exactly for this reason – to guide you in matters where your own understanding falls short. Now let's move from this legal stuff to social issues. Judaism stayed a tribal religion until the Jews gained power in Palestine.

00:11:54 – 00:12:57 By 325 AD, when Constantine accepted Christianity in the Roman Empire, Christians didn’t really gain that much power either. The spread of Islam in most parts of the world also seems closely tied to military campaigns. Sir Tom, when spreading organized religions, they depend on these military campaigns and power, and power rules over society. If power isn’t based on ethnicity, does religion not address individuals on a personal level? It definitely does. Religion has always started from individual belief. Sometimes it has power, sometimes it doesn’t.

00:12:26 – 00:13:20 Got it. Both kinds of religions didn’t get much acceptance. People became Hindus, Confucians, Taoists, Buddhists. But their religions never reached the status of a universal religion. The thing is, what do you mean by a universal religion? From the perspective of a universal religion, you could even talk about Islam. Its influence stopped at a certain point. It expanded up to a certain region, and after that, it’s been fading gradually. Even Hinduism is now spreading worldwide with education. Just look at America and Britain.

00:12:53 – 00:13:52 A lot of organizations are being set up to spread their teachings. Now, the foundation of Hinduism is based on the Vedas. That’s a universal philosophy, and people all over the world follow it. So, how can any invitation, message, or call be restricted to just one region? It will reach the world, based on its own rationale. One major criticism often raised is: how can they spread their message to others when they don’t even agree among themselves? The Holy Quran says…

00:13:22 – 00:14:19 It’s been announced that Mansha Yamin Mansha Yafar—I just don’t get if Islam tries to enforce its teachings or not. It doesn’t really say anything about non-believers. Maulana Maududi wrote in one of his essays that if you don’t interfere in disbelief, disbelievers will definitely interfere in your religion, Islam. That’s why Muslims should step up and take control of the system of life. That’s Maulana Maududi’s view. You can agree or disagree with it. The question is, do you have the right…

00:13:51 – 00:14:43 How can they take away my right to understand religion? I’ll stand by what I believe is correct. What do the other viewpoints matter? I mean, forget about religion for a moment. Ultimately, every perspective—like theirs or a Catholic Christian’s—how do they decide if what Gandhi is presenting about Islam is right, or what Muddi sahib is presenting? God has given him insight, and by that light, he’ll decide for himself. People are making their own judgments. Tell me, the people who are becoming Muslims—Doctor Hamidullah came to Pakistan, and I asked him…

00:14:17 – 00:15:13 When asked about how many Muslims there are in Paris, they said that about seven or eight people convert to Islam every day. The people who are becoming Muslim are making that decision themselves. So the point here is, what's the problem you or I have with people making their own choices? We'll keep the conversation going. Yes, our religion says there should be no kind of force. If you consider that statement, it clearly shows that a person has the freedom to read and understand the religion, and after that, it's their own choice.

00:14:45 – 00:15:41 Whether someone wants to follow it or not, and how they want to approach it, that’s totally their choice. Look at our Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). How did he guide people towards Islam? Did he force anyone? No. He inspired people through his character, his behavior, and his words. That’s how people accepted Islam. So, when the religion itself says there should be no compulsion in this, doesn’t that mean a person has their own freedom to choose?

00:15:12 – 00:16:10 Whether someone wants to follow or not, that’s totally up to them. No doubt about it. Everyone has their own choice. They can accept Islam if they want, or choose any other religion. Islam doesn’t force anyone in this matter. You have full rights. The Quran clearly states this. Whoever wants to believe can believe, whoever doesn’t can reject. That’s your right. Similarly, when it comes to religious rulings, there’s a long list where your personal decision counts, and no one can interfere. A few rules relate to social life, and I have…

00:15:42 – 00:16:33 He has said that a big part of it is related to ethics. How can ethical matters be left up to an individual? You mean people will be left to decide whether they want to adulterate or not, whether they want to cheat or not? There are many issues like this where laws have to be made worldwide. Religion covers a huge area related to ethics. For example, religion forbids adulteration, it forbids bribery. So, will laws be made about this or not? About taking bribes…

00:16:07 – 00:17:01 The case against me is that I’ll take a bribe. On the Day of Judgment, I’ll answer to my Creator for that. What I’m really trying to explain to you is this: there’s no doubt that people overstep boundaries. For example, no one has the right to force someone to keep a beard. No one has the right to force women to cover up. No one has the right to tell someone they must go on Hajj. No one has the right to force anyone to fast. These are religious rules. But there’s a much bigger area of ethics involved, which includes religion…

00:16:34 – 00:17:42 Everyone wants laws to be made. The conscience of the world wants laws too. So, from here, we’ll continue our conversation. But before that, viewers, it’s time for a break. We’ll be back right after. [Music] Welcome back after the break. Yes, please go ahead with your question. I want to ask, you said that when a person truly believes, they follow Islam. Even then, we expect this person might sometimes cross limits or violate rules. That means, we need to make laws.

00:17:08 – 00:18:10 He'll have to be stopped for that. So, what kind of caste or boundary is this where Islam will begin and individual castes will end? You asked a very good question, and I think this is the key question—if it could be resolved adequately, all issues would be settled. Look, there are certain things considered morally wrong in Islam—things nobody debates. The whole world agrees these are moral vices. Both the law and religion accept the right to legislate against them, and so do we. That means I've…

00:17:39 – 00:18:40 It's all been mentioned—bribery, betrayal, embezzlement, mistreating someone, taking away someone's rights. You'll agree that the government has the authority to make laws about these and to decide punishment for those who commit these crimes. Now, when it comes to religious rules—that is, after the moral rules—there are some religious duties. For example, fasting, going on pilgrimage, giving zakat. The Quran has made it clear that none of these religious duties can be forcibly imposed on anyone by the state. The government has no jurisdiction over these. This decision is absolute and personal.

00:18:09 – 00:19:08 There are only two things: one is Zakat, and the other is Namaz (prayer). You need to pay attention to Namaz so that in your society, people generally understand it’s Allah’s right. And Zakat is just like how the government collects taxes. That’s why you have to pay it—no matter what, you have to pay it. So, Allah hasn’t left this matter open for me or you to decide, nor for any group or community. He has made it clear where an individual’s freedom ends and where the common order for Muslims comes in and takes effect.

00:18:39 – 00:19:41 Okay. There’s been a long discussion about the reference you gave to Ulla Ikra regarding strictness—whether someone curses or accepts Islam. When it comes to strictness, the Quran verse "La Ikra Fi’din Ikra" means there’s no compulsion in religion, so you can’t restrict anyone in matters of belief. But when it comes to religion itself, you said there are some ethical requirements and some religious traditions or practices that need to be followed. Looking at the life of the Prophet (PBUH), we don’t see any disagreement about that. Like, if you talk about prayer…

00:19:10 – 00:20:08 He gave the order and also said in the same hadith that if the people who are not offering the five daily prayers don't fear for their children and elderly, then he would burn down all their houses. On the other hand, when we talk about establishing religion (Ikamat-e-Deen), this directly challenges the promises of Islam. It's really important to clarify this point, and you should actually clarify it when discussing Ikamat-e-Deen. Look, the thing is, you said exactly right about La Ikraaf-ud-Deen (not forcing religion). I’ve also said the same—that Allah doesn’t force anyone when it comes to religion.

00:19:39 – 00:20:34 No, it doesn’t say that. Actually, this verse isn’t telling us directly what to do. It’s explaining how God’s law works in the world. Like, Allah doesn’t force anyone to become a believer. He doesn’t make anyone follow a specific guidance against their will. This is Allah’s plan. The obvious takeaway is that we shouldn’t force anyone on matters of faith or religion. Once a person becomes Muslim, we then turn to the Quran and the Prophet's (peace be upon him) teachings to see what to follow.

00:20:06 – 00:21:06 There can be consensus laws on the matter. So, what things have been left to the individual? The Quran has clearly answered this, like two plus two equals four, that apart from prayer and zakat, no other laws can be made regarding religious rules. In Surah Tawbah, the Quran even strictly commands that once these two obligations are fulfilled, everyone should leave them alone and not interfere in any way. God has commanded His Prophet this way. So, the issue of religion isn’t just about this.

00:20:36 – 00:21:35 If you know him from a religious perspective, you understand his details and teachings. When you know that, you practice the religion. Do you know what practicing religion means? It means fully following the faith. This is my responsibility and yours too. And the rules that Sharia has given you, which relate to social life, those will be followed in society. The religion itself has ordered that apart from these two things, all other matters should be kept outside the scope of law. When we say the Quran is the complete code of life, its teachings are there. The Holy Prophet…

00:21:06 – 00:22:01 Salam gave us a model state as an example. In that, we see that you did the preaching, you also took up the sword, you stopped people firmly, and you also invited them. If they've given us this model state with both these things, then why today do we divide it and argue about whether it’s like this or that, or that there’s room for debate? The division itself is mentioned in the Quran. This division was established by the Prophet himself. He showed exactly what to do and when. It’s interesting that you say Islam is a complete system. Remember, first of all, this isn’t just something from the Quran…

00:21:34 – 00:22:27 It’s not mentioned anywhere in any hadith. These modern tours are a new thing. In Islam, there is Shariah. Islam has two parts. One relates to faith and morals, and the other relates to laws. There are laws related to my personal life—that’s where they stay, limited to my personal life. There are laws related to my family life—those are limited to family matters. There are laws related to my social life too. Understanding and knowing these boundaries is important, and going against them is against Shariah. Allah has set limits within which you must act.

00:22:00 – 00:23:04 They didn’t give permission or warn you not to interfere. You had a good meeting, now here’s the thing: in Pakistan, on New Year’s night, religious groups form these armed forces. The police sniff people out to figure out their character. And behind all these incidents is a religious doctrine that promotes "Amr bil Ma’ruf" (enjoining good) and "Nahi Anil Munkar" (forbidding wrong) to suppress what they see as evil. Isn’t this religious doctrine in conflict with La Ikrra Fiddin’s religious teachings? Or look, you created problems yourself. This is what—

00:22:32 – 00:23:29 There are religious gangs, religious groups, religious organizations, but they have no right to interfere in legal matters. Allah Almighty has made it very clear in His religion that my relationship with you, or one group's relationship with another group, is about calling to the faith. The Quran also explains practical wisdom for this: they have the right to invite others to the faith. Invitation to faith is an invitation to pay attention. It means, “This isn’t right.” I’m telling you, you should correct your behavior.

00:23:00 – 00:23:55 This is an invitation. The Quran has also given practical wisdom about it. It means, with wisdom and understanding, teach people the right thing. It's obvious—I do this with my own kids, I do it with my brothers too. You also do this in society. You stop people and say it's not right to take away others' rights. It's not good to encourage bad things. The power to stop bad things is related to one's own control and responsibility. Everyone has their own area of control. My area of control is my home. Someone…

00:23:28 – 00:24:19 The authority of an institution is limited to that institution. And you can force your own kids to pray after beating them. No, I discipline my kids properly, even if I have to scold them. Look, when it comes to religion, as the head of the family, inside your own home and within your own domain, you can definitely make your kids pray by force, by using the power or even a stick. The point is, all these matters fall within that domain with wisdom. Why wouldn’t they? Because I have the right to morally train my children. Do I have this right or not? That means no one else…

00:23:53 – 00:24:58 If someone goes and abuses Humsa, can I stand up for him or not? How can you take away a father's right to raise his own child? Sir, from here we'll continue the conversation. But before that, it's time for a break. We'll be right back after the break. [Music] Welcome back. Please go ahead with your question. When we brought this thing forward as a complete code of law, confusion arose about which moral values are which, and which religious values are which. This raises a lot of questions. Please explain.

00:24:26 – 00:25:23 Look, there are certain things we can individually restrict, and then there are those we absolutely shouldn't touch. The problem is that people only listen to religion but don’t really study or understand it. Religion has clearly addressed each one of these things, laying down the rules. I'm telling you, religion has specified everything—what's wrong and what's right—especially when it comes to morals and universally accepted principles. Every government, every state, every society creates laws around these, and we should do the same when it comes to religious rulings.

00:24:55 – 00:25:58 What's the connection? Pointing fingers at just these two and saying leave the rest alone—these are the words of the Quran. You mentioned the Messenger (peace be upon him). Apart from these two things, neither the Caliph Radhiyallahu Anhu nor the Prophet (peace be upon him) ever showed such strictness. Like the Lal Masjid incident—when the students from Lal Masjid formed armed groups and attacked Chinese centers—that was against the principles. Look, you’re mixing two things up. One is that no group has the right to take such action. The state’s some…

00:25:26 – 00:26:20 Greetings, there are some rules and some laws. Just tell me this: whether it's a market or a state, even if it’s not apparently Islamic, why do you call Muslim rule an Islamic state? Because it's ruled by Muslims. Muslims are the majority. Muslims have the right to make laws. But when it comes to making laws based on religious rules, what kind of laws can be made? The Quran has already set clear limits. This matter isn’t open to interpretation. The connection with religion has slowly started to weaken. After that, people began to distance themselves from it.

00:25:53 – 00:26:44 They even started getting possessive. So, you’re giving examples of them. When people have a connection with their religion, they interpret it based on their understanding. They act according to their interpretation. If they make a mistake in that interpretation, the mistake will also be pointed out. Everyone who talked about what happened at Lal Masjid said it was wrong. Every respected thinker, every knowledgeable person said it was wrong. What General Musharraf said—that there were 94 terrorists hiding there—is a lie. The thing is, what General Musharraf is saying and what everyone else is saying… and there at 95…

00:26:19 – 00:27:16 Whether they were terrorists or 400 in number, I don't want to speculate on that. You know that Mutahida Arra is talked about all over society. But the real issue is that the actions taken by the people of Lal Masjid were fundamentally wrong—wrong in terms of religion, in terms of morals, and against the spirit of Pakistan’s laws. And I think, where did your students get the guns and the power to challenge the state’s authority? There should be an investigation into where that came from. The question is, those agencies and your institutions like Darul…

00:26:47 – 00:27:44 They’re supposed to be in charge of keeping things secure. So how did all this happen right under their nose? This definitely calls for an investigation. We need to find out who set up that mosque. We need to check where the weapons were coming from. Who was protecting them? And even today, whenever such incidents happen, who’s behind them? Yeah, you really need to look into this. If I’m a non-Muslim living in an Islamic state, do I really have the right to become the top leader? Do I have the right to become a judge here? Number three, what?

00:27:15 – 00:28:18 So, in an Islamic state’s court, will a woman’s testimony be considered half? Doesn’t this mess with her constitutional and legal rights, regardless of the religion here? And if none of this is written in the Quran or Hadith, then these are just things we’re deciding on our own. I don’t fully agree with any of them. I believe we should establish a democratic society where everyone takes part. That’s what the Quran really wants: "Decide by mutual consultation, based on principles."

00:27:47 – 00:28:38 All matters should be handled properly. Why is there a need to impose restrictions? If Muslims are the majority, it's obvious they'll choose someone from among themselves. And if a large majority of Muslims are ready to accept a non-Muslim as their leader, then so be it. The country’s system will run on parliamentary principles, and laws will be made in parliament. Because of this, these are all things that people should truly have the authority over. The Quran mentions the testimony of witnesses. There’s no question of a woman’s testimony being half. None at all.

00:28:13 – 00:29:03 This has nothing to do with the law. It’s not related to any job or position. You can’t make any law of evidence based on it. It’s a completely different matter that the Quran is talking about. It’s about when you write some documents or handle a case, whom you should make a witness. What does this have to do with the law? If it were related to the law, the verse would have started by saying, “If you have a case, call witnesses like this.” But it’s actually saying, look, to avoid misunderstandings among yourselves, you should write documents like this. Something like that.

00:28:38 – 00:29:50 You should make them witnesses. This is a practical piece of advice. Yes. Mr. Ramji, if tomorrow one of your kids turns 21 or 22 and becomes an adult according to state and law, what will you say if he then tells you he doesn’t believe in Islam? What would you do? I’ll try to explain it to him. If he still doesn’t accept it, then I’ll leave it at that. My responsibility ends there. After that, you tell him, "It’s your choice." My responsibility is only until then—I haven’t been given any further rights. Until the child becomes an adult, as a father, I will raise him, educate him. That’s my role.

00:29:14 – 00:30:20 I have the right and it’s also my duty. Now that he’s an adult, the relationship between him and me is one of dialogue. I’ll talk to him, question him, debate with him. That’s what I have to do. About Lal Masjid—you said what they did was right. No, it was wrong. Absolutely wrong. So, what should be done against those gangs who try to forcefully impose Islam, these so-called Islamic laws? What do you think we should do to raise awareness and make people understand the true Islam? You, Chief…

00:29:47 – 00:30:47 The movement for justice was launched. Your lawyers, your media, your intellectuals all came together at one point. You won that battle. But have we organized people to understand the true meaning of Islam? Have we built their organization? Have we held discussions on it? Have we created awareness about it in society? This work needs to be done. When you create awareness among the public, such things won’t mislead them anymore. Right now, there’s encroachment on Hudood laws. Religious gangs are organized. They forcibly impose their views on people. This happens even in our own religious centers.

00:30:17 – 00:31:28 Our religious organizations do this. Now it’s even starting to happen in other areas too. Alright. Sir, from here, we’ll continue our conversation. But before that, it’s time for a break. We’ll be back after the break. [Music] Welcome back. Please go ahead and ask. The Hadith says that if you see someone doing something wrong, you should stop them with your hand. This shows the strength of your faith. And the second thing is, if you can’t do that, then stop them with your words. This shows that your faith is moderate. And if you can’t do even this…

00:30:53 – 00:31:50 If you can't do it, then just stay quiet, because that shows your faith is weak. So, if we look at this whole scenario and this hadith carefully, how can we apply it in a way that we neither completely stop someone nor fully allow them, and at the same time, understand how our faith is getting stronger or weaker? To truly understand any hadith, it’s important to view it in the light of the Qur'an and the overall system of religion. This hadith is related to limits or boundaries. In this world, human civilization is such that we're individuals but also…

00:31:21 – 00:32:17 Each one of us holds a certain level of authority. As a father, I have my own authority. As a husband, I have my own authority. When you set up any institution, I have my authority in that too. You established the army, set up the police — within those, there’s a certain sphere of authority. Similarly, a state has its own authority. So, there needs to be a proper order within this sphere of authority. For example, if someone in the police breaks the law under which that system was created, you’d take action, right? Because within your authority…

00:31:49 – 00:32:44 If you don’t have the courage, then you’re basically low on faith. Understand that rejecting or accepting bad things isn’t about religious rules. Rejection actually relates to things that are harmful for a Muslim. I gave examples of such bad things. If you see any of these bad things within your control, know that every government in the world tries to stop it, every organization tries to stop it, and every parent tries to stop it at home. So, it’s a matter of what’s within your control. If you show weakness within your control, then your faith is like that…

00:32:16 – 00:33:02 The point about “degree” means the power to stop wrongdoing, according to the Hadith they referenced. You said that this is related to authority and scope. Is this phrase—about it being related to authority and scope—your personal opinion or a consensus among scholars? The good thing is, it's impossible to understand this Hadith any other way. Its words clearly indicate this. The interpretation clearly says that people are being hurt. Barbershops are being forcibly shut down. Video centers are being blown up. That's exactly what the interpretation shows.

00:32:39 – 00:33:32 Everyone is saying this is wrong. They're saying the boundaries are being crossed. Like, the scholars don’t agree with this hadith being about jurisdiction or authority. Look, the thing is, everyone has the right to interpret for themselves. So why do you insist that everyone has to agree on everything? The point is, there should be some agreement, right? What does this have to do with the core purpose of religion? The core purpose of religion is that Allah has given you a command in the Quran and through the message.

00:33:05 – 00:34:13 He’s explained the reasons behind it. Now it’s up to you to understand. So, the Quran and Hadith have given the guidelines, but it’s up to humans to interpret them. Yes, go ahead and ask. You mentioned whether we can forcefully apply Islamic laws within moral boundaries. So, what do you think—can you force someone to not steal, cheat, or take bribes? And to what extent do these laws actually improve your society? Also, how far is it justified to enforce them by force? Regarding moral boundaries, I never said anything decisive. I said that within ethics, there are certain things that are considered crimes.

00:33:39 – 00:34:37 Laws will be made based on their foundation. As for stopping things, well, to prevent something you need to educate, train, and raise awareness. When someone commits a crime, then you punish them. Just like how laws are made to punish those who take bribes, or those who sell adulterated goods. These laws exist because human nature is such that, despite education and training, people sometimes slip up. So, these laws are made all around the world, and we do the same.

00:34:08 – 00:35:09 We'll do it. The issue only comes up when it’s about religious matters—there’s no argument in the world about that. The real problem arises with religious rules. Regarding those rules, Allah Almighty has clearly laid down in His book that, apart from these two things, you cannot interfere in the affairs of the state. Interfering with any group or the state itself is off limits. The Holy Quran has defined and limited this. These laws are found even in societies where no religion has reached or where no one follows any religion. This is the universal truth.

00:34:39 – 00:35:37 Look, the Quran clearly tells us what things are forbidden by being explicit about them. So, not all matters of morals have laws made for them. In some cases, you use a method of gentle advice and guidance. If you look at your police order, it also tells you that in certain cases the police will come and encourage reconciliation, in others they’ll warn you, in some they’ll call you to the station for a bit of discipline, and then there are cases that fall under the law where an act is declared a crime, and you punish it according to the law.

00:35:08 – 00:36:10 Let's wrap up today's discussion. People are the foundation of society, and society is forced to align matters under one or more perspectives based on the collective interests of individuals. But if this pressure goes too far and starts affecting a person's individual identity, then any possible resistance from that person can cause problems for society. However, if someone tries to use their personal freedom to cut down the social and ideological roots of society, then society as a whole can make an example out of that person.

00:35:39 – 00:36:20 But the only way between these two extremes is mutual respect, which, when followed, can create tolerance and mutual respect for every individual and every aspect of society and the state. And then, even though religion remains a personal matter, as Gandhi said, it becomes a means of social identity.